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Evidence · Journal club

Journal club: STEP 4 and what a withdrawal design can prove

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Solved by JFitzgibbon in post #2
Coming back to the opening post, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. TRIUMPH (ongoing): Retatrutide phase 3. No results yet. Nothing should be attributed to it because it has not finished. When it does, this discussion will return to it.

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DKwiatkowskiTL3Regular14 Feb 2025#1

On the subject in the title: Journal club: STEP 4 and what a withdrawal design can prove Working notes rather than a conclusion.

Session topic: SURMOUNT-1 (N Engl J Med, 2022). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has.

The question I would like us to start with is what the trial set out to estimate, rather than what it found. Once that is on the table we can talk about whether the design could have answered it, and only then about the numbers.

Specific things I would like covered: the population and how far it generalises, how discontinuation was handled, whether the comparator was a fair one, and what the absolute rather than relative effect looks like.

I will summarise at the end and the summary will feed the relevant digest page.

11 likes 17mo
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JFitzgibbonTL2Member Solution19 Feb 2025#2

Coming back to the opening post, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

TRIUMPH (ongoing): Retatrutide phase 3. No results yet. Nothing should be attributed to it because it has not finished. When it does, this discussion will return to it.

15 likes 17mo
TV
to.vargaTL2 Moderator23 Feb 2025#3
DKwiatkowski, post #1: On the subject in the title: Journal club: STEP 4 and what a withdrawal design can prove Working notes rather than a conclusion. Session topic: SURMOUNT-1 ( N Engl J Med , 2022). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has. The question I would like us to start with is what the trial set out to… Go to post

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

30 likes in reply to #1 17mo
GH
g.haalandTL3Regular26 Feb 2025#4
DKwiatkowski, post #1: On the subject in the title: Journal club: STEP 4 and what a withdrawal design can prove Working notes rather than a conclusion. Session topic: SURMOUNT-1 ( N Engl J Med , 2022). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has. The question I would like us to start with is what the trial set out to… Go to post

SURMOUNT-OSA (N Engl J Med 2024): Tirzepatide in obstructive sleep apnoea, using an objective physiological endpoint. Notable because soft endpoints are avoided. Two parallel trials addressed the confounder directly.

0 likes in reply to #1 17mo
IO
i.oseiTL2 Moderator1 Mar 2025#5

This follows post #2 rather than contradicting it.

SELECT (N Engl J Med 2023): Semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes without diabetes. The first outcome trial in people without diabetes, which decoupled the cardiovascular argument from glucose control. Read the absolute numbers, not just the relative reduction.

3 likes 17mo
CD
cohort_driftTL3Regular4 Mar 2025 · edited#6

I read post #4 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

STEP 1 (N Engl J Med 2021): The pivotal obesity trial for semaglutide and the reference point for most subsequent comparison. Mean weight reduction was substantially larger than anything previously achieved pharmacologically.

10 likes 17mo
SO
s.oyelaranTL2 Moderator7 Mar 2025#7

Session format: read the paper before posting. The discussion is much better when everyone has. Start with the estimand and population, then methods, then results, then limitations. That order makes critique coherent.

23 likes 17mo
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OTeixeiraTL3Regular10 Mar 2025#8
to.varga, post #3: For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use. Go to post

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

0 likes in reply to #3 17mo
RC
r.coelhoTL2 Moderator12 Mar 2025#9

Picking up post #6: that is the part I would want checked first.

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

15 likes 17mo
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MJayawardenaTL3Regular15 Mar 2025#10

FLOW (N Engl J Med 2024): Semaglutide renal outcomes in type 2 diabetes and chronic kidney disease. Stopped early for efficacy. Component-by-component analysis is essential because the components differ in how patient-important they are.

29 likes 16mo
SL
s.lindqvistTL2 Moderator17 Mar 2025#11

On post #7 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

SURMOUNT-1 (N Engl J Med 2022): Tirzepatide obesity trial. The largest mean weight reduction for a pharmacological intervention at publication. Read the categorical thresholds carefully — they can exaggerate separation.

0 likes 16mo
SG
s.grigorescuTL2Member20 Mar 2025#12

SURPASS-2 (N Engl J Med 2021): Direct comparison of tirzepatide with semaglutide 1.0 mg. The 1.0 mg dose is not the highest available, which is the central and legitimate criticism of the head-to-head evidence.

24 likes 16mo
GT
g.tammTL2 Moderator22 Mar 2025 · edited#13
JFitzgibbon, post #2: Coming back to the opening post, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. TRIUMPH (ongoing): Retatrutide phase 3. No results yet. Nothing should be attributed to it because it has not finished. When it does, this discussion will return to it. Go to post

SOUL (N Engl J Med 2025): Oral semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes. Extends the cardiovascular evidence to the oral formulation. Note that oral bioavailability is lower and more variable than injectable.

7 likes in reply to #2 16mo
FR
figure_reviewTL2Member24 Mar 2025#14

Critical appraisal template: (1) What did the trial set out to estimate? (2) Could the design answer that question? (3) Was the population sufficiently similar to your population to apply the results? (4) What was the absolute effect, not just the relative one? (5) What are the two strongest criticisms available?

1 like 16mo
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i.ilungaTL227 Mar 2025#15
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sleep_logTL2Regular29 Mar 2025#16
i.osei, post #5: This follows post #2 rather than contradicting it. SELECT (N Engl J Med 2023): Semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes without diabetes. The first outcome trial in people without diabetes, which decoupled the cardiovascular argument from glucose control. Read the absolute numbers, not just the relative reduction. Go to post

post #15 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Critical appraisal template: (1) What did the trial set out to estimate? (2) Could the design answer that question? (3) Was the population sufficiently similar to your population to apply the results? (4) What was the absolute effect, not just the relative one? (5) What are the two strongest criticisms available?

33 likes in reply to #5 16mo
SR
sa.rasmussenTL2 Moderator31 Mar 2025#17
DKwiatkowski, post #1: On the subject in the title: Journal club: STEP 4 and what a withdrawal design can prove Working notes rather than a conclusion. Session topic: SURMOUNT-1 ( N Engl J Med , 2022). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has. The question I would like us to start with is what the trial set out to… Go to post

SOUL (N Engl J Med 2025): Oral semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes. Extends the cardiovascular evidence to the oral formulation. Note that oral bioavailability is lower and more variable than injectable.

11 likes in reply to #1 16mo
FV
first_vialTL1Member2 Apr 2025#18

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

3 likes 16mo
AI
an.ibarraTL2 Moderator5 Apr 2025#19

SURPASS-2 (N Engl J Med 2021): Direct comparison of tirzepatide with semaglutide 1.0 mg. The 1.0 mg dose is not the highest available, which is the central and legitimate criticism of the head-to-head evidence.

1 like 16mo
FN
formulary_notesTL3Regular7 Apr 2025#20
i.osei, post #5: This follows post #2 rather than contradicting it. SELECT (N Engl J Med 2023): Semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes without diabetes. The first outcome trial in people without diabetes, which decoupled the cardiovascular argument from glucose control. Read the absolute numbers, not just the relative reduction. Go to post

post #19 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

0 likes in reply to #5 16mo
AK
ak.kravchenkoTL2 Moderator9 Apr 2025#21

TRIUMPH (ongoing): Retatrutide phase 3. No results yet. Nothing should be attributed to it because it has not finished. When it does, this discussion will return to it.

0 likes 16mo
AD
ambient_draftTL3Regular11 Apr 2025#22

Worth separating two things that post #18 runs together.

Session format: read the paper before posting. The discussion is much better when everyone has. Start with the estimand and population, then methods, then results, then limitations. That order makes critique coherent.

2 likes 16mo
SL
s.lundgrenTL2 Moderator13 Apr 2025#23

SURMOUNT-OSA (N Engl J Med 2024): Tirzepatide in obstructive sleep apnoea, using an objective physiological endpoint. Notable because soft endpoints are avoided. Two parallel trials addressed the confounder directly.

8 likes 15mo
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LJankowiakTL3Regular15 Apr 2025#24
formulary_notes, post #20: post #19 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different. For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use. Go to post

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

19 likes in reply to #20 15mo
HK
h.kimaniTL2 Moderator17 Apr 2025#25

post #24 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

0 likes 15mo
AS
a.schaefferTL2Member19 Apr 2025#26

On post #22 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

STEP 1 (N Engl J Med 2021): The pivotal obesity trial for semaglutide and the reference point for most subsequent comparison. Mean weight reduction was substantially larger than anything previously achieved pharmacologically.

0 likes 15mo
NK
n.kirchnerTL2 Moderator21 Apr 2025#27
formulary_notes, post #20: post #19 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different. For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use. Go to post

SELECT (N Engl J Med 2023): Semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes without diabetes. The first outcome trial in people without diabetes, which decoupled the cardiovascular argument from glucose control. Read the absolute numbers, not just the relative reduction.

5 likes in reply to #20 15mo
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integrator_traceTL223 Apr 2025#28
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e.mwangiTL2 Moderator25 Apr 2025#29
integrator_trace, post #28: FLOW (N Engl J Med 2024): Semaglutide renal outcomes in type 2 diabetes and chronic kidney disease. Stopped early for efficacy. Component-by-component analysis is essential because the components differ in how patient-important they are. Go to post

SURMOUNT-1 (N Engl J Med 2022): Tirzepatide obesity trial. The largest mean weight reduction for a pharmacological intervention at publication. Read the categorical thresholds carefully — they can exaggerate separation.

28 likes in reply to #28 15mo
K
KTurkingtonTL3Regular27 Apr 2025#30

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

0 likes 15mo