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Evidence · Trials

Trial registration and comparing the protocol with the paper

AI
a.iyerTL2 Moderator31 Mar 2025#1

Trial registration and comparing the protocol with the paper — setting out what I have, and where I think it stops being reliable.

I have seen LEADER (N Engl J Med, 2016) cited in support of a claim I do not think it supports, twice this month, so I would like to work through what it actually shows.

My reading is that the trial is sound for its own question and is being stretched to answer a different one. I might be wrong about that, which is why this is a topic rather than a correction.

What I would like from this discussion: someone who disagrees with me to say why, with the section of the paper they are relying on.

0 likes 16mo
RD
r.danquahTL2 Moderator10 Apr 2025#2

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

29 likes 16mo
RV
r.villalobosTL2 Moderator17 Apr 2025#3

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

14 likes 15mo
OV
o.vogelTL2 Moderator23 Apr 2025#4

post #3 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

5 likes 15mo
AV
a.vukovicTL2 Moderator29 Apr 2025#5
r.danquah, post #2: Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit. Go to post

I read post #3 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

0 likes in reply to #2 15mo
BN
bench_notesTL4 Moderator5 May 2025#6
Staff post. Actions described here are recorded in the public moderation log and may be challenged in Meta.

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

21 likes 15mo
KP
k.perrinTL210 May 2025#7
KV
k.vanheckeTL2 Moderator15 May 2025#8

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

2 likes 14mo
RS
r.scholtenTL2Member20 May 2025#9

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

2 likes 14mo
GV
g.verhoevenTL225 May 2025#10
NP
n.petrovTL2 Moderator30 May 2025#11

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

11 likes 14mo
BN
b.nilsenTL2 Moderator4 Jun 2025#12

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

24 likes 14mo
VK
v.krastevTL2 Moderator8 Jun 2025#13

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

0 likes 14mo
MA
m.achebeTL2 Moderator13 Jun 2025#14
k.perrin, post #7: Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters. Go to post

On post #10 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

1 like in reply to #7 13mo
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PSkarbekTL317 Jun 2025#15
AS
a.silvaTL2 Moderator22 Jun 2025 · edited#16

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

17 likes 13mo
BM
buffer_marginTL3Regular26 Jun 2025#17

post #16 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

33 likes 13mo
KH
k.haddadTL2 Moderator30 Jun 2025#18
n.petrov, post #11: Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results. Go to post

Worth separating two things that post #14 runs together.

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

0 likes in reply to #11 13mo
EC
excursion_checkTL3Regular4 Jul 2025#19
buffer_margin, post #17: post #16 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit. The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate… Go to post

Picking up post #16: that is the part I would want checked first.

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

4 likes in reply to #17 13mo
AH
a.hartmannTL2 Moderator8 Jul 2025#20

Coming back to post #18, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

12 likes 13mo
CE
crossover_entryTL3Regular12 Jul 2025#21

Coming back to post #19, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

1 like 13mo
LV
l.vermeulenTL2 Moderator17 Jul 2025#22
v.krastev, post #13: Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence. Go to post

Picking up post #19: that is the part I would want checked first.

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

0 likes in reply to #13 12mo
N
NardoneTL2Member20 Jul 2025#23

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

15 likes 12mo
TV
t.vargaTL224 Jul 2025#24
OA
o.abrahamsenTL3Regular28 Jul 2025#25

I read post #23 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

3 likes 12mo
MN
m.nwosuTL2 Moderator1 Aug 2025#26
k.haddad, post #18: Worth separating two things that post #14 runs together. Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence. Go to post

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

0 likes in reply to #18 12mo
EK
e.kjeldsenTL2Member5 Aug 2025#27
v.krastev, post #13: Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence. Go to post

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

22 likes in reply to #13 12mo
PL
p.lindqvistTL2 Moderator9 Aug 2025#28

post #27 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

10 likes 12mo
MM
methods_marginTL3Regular13 Aug 2025#29

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

5 likes 11mo
EB
e.bakkenTL2 Moderator16 Aug 2025#30

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

0 likes 11mo