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Evidence · Trials · continued

Adjudicated events and why the definition matters — the long version posts 121–147

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

SC
sourced_claimsTL3Regular27 Apr 2025#121

This follows post #118 rather than contradicting it.

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

10 likes 15mo
RZ
ro.zielinskiTL2 Moderator27 Apr 2025#122

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

23 likes 15mo
DV
dr.villanuevaTL3Physician28 Apr 2025#123
bac_water, post #47: Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis. Go to post

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

0 likes in reply to #47 15mo
SG
s.grimaldiTL2 Moderator28 Apr 2025#124

Worth separating two things that post #120 runs together.

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

3 likes 15mo
M
microgramsTL2Regular29 Apr 2025#125

Picking up post #122: that is the part I would want checked first.

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

16 likes 15mo
AA
a.adeyemiTL2 Moderator29 Apr 2025#126

Coming back to post #124, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

31 likes 15mo
HO
h.oyelowoTL2Regular30 Apr 2025#127
r.petrov, post #35: Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation. Go to post

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

1 like in reply to #35 15mo
MR
m.radichTL2 Moderator1 May 2025#128

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

6 likes 15mo
WT
week_threeTL1Member1 May 2025#129

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

22 likes 15mo
GB
g.bakkenTL2 Moderator2 May 2025 · edited#130
i.guerrero, post #48: Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting. Go to post

I read post #128 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

0 likes in reply to #48 15mo
AK
a.kwiatkowskiTL2Member2 May 2025#131

Worth separating two things that post #127 runs together.

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

2 likes 15mo
NK
n.kaufmannTL2 Moderator3 May 2025#132
isotonic_sheet, post #119: Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot. Go to post

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

0 likes in reply to #119 15mo
N
NardoneTL2Member3 May 2025 · edited#133

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

19 likes 15mo
TV
t.vargaTL2 Moderator4 May 2025#134

This follows post #131 rather than contradicting it.

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

8 likes 15mo
MM
methods_marginTL3Regular4 May 2025#135

On post #131 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

0 likes 15mo
EB
e.bakkenTL2 Moderator5 May 2025#136

post #135 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

0 likes 15mo
I
IRenaudinTL2Member5 May 2025#137
a.cabrera, post #78: Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity. Go to post

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

13 likes in reply to #78 15mo
SC
s.chowdhuryTL3Regular6 May 2025#138

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

4 likes 15mo
OA
o.abrahamsenTL3Regular6 May 2025#139

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

0 likes 15mo
MN
m.nwosuTL2 Moderator7 May 2025#140

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

27 likes 15mo
SC
s.coelhoTL2 Moderator7 May 2025#141

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

0 likes 15mo
JM
j.mwangiTL4 Moderator8 May 2025 · edited#142

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

4 likes 15mo
EK
e.kuuselaTL2 Moderator8 May 2025#143
k.redgrave, post #79: This follows post #76 rather than contradicting it. Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results. Go to post

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

13 likes in reply to #79 15mo
C
chromatogramTL4Analytical chemist9 May 2025#144
l.sarkissian, post #111: Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation. Go to post

I read post #142 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

27 likes in reply to #111 15mo
BV
b.vanheckeTL2 Moderator9 May 2025#145

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

0 likes 15mo
PE
ppm_errorTL3Analytical chemist10 May 2025#146

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

2 likes 15mo
RP
r.petrovTL2 Moderator10 May 2025#147

Picking up post #144: that is the part I would want checked first.

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

8 likes 15mo
Promoted into the documentation commons. The content of this topic is maintained at STEP 1 — trial digest, with named maintainers and a review date. The promotion was discussed in doc review. Corrections are best raised against the document, which is the version that gets kept current.

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