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Evidence · Trials

Coming back to: Sample size calculations, read backwards from the published number

PR
policy_readerTL2Regular7 Mar 2025#1

On the subject in the title: Sample size calculations, read backwards from the published number Working notes rather than a conclusion.

Session topic: PIONEER 6 (N Engl J Med, 2019). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has.

The question I would like us to start with is what the trial set out to estimate, rather than what it found. Once that is on the table we can talk about whether the design could have answered it, and only then about the numbers.

Specific things I would like covered: the population and how far it generalises, how discontinuation was handled, whether the comparator was a fair one, and what the absolute rather than relative effect looks like.

I will summarise at the end and the summary will feed the relevant digest page.

15 likes 17mo
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IRenaudinTL2Member13 Mar 2025#2

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

19 likes 17mo
EB
e.bakkenTL2 Moderator17 Mar 2025 · edited#3

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

0 likes 16mo
MM
methods_marginTL3Regular20 Mar 2025#4
e.bakken, post #3: Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis. Go to post

Worth separating two things that post #3 runs together.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

0 likes in reply to #3 16mo
TV
t.vargaTL2 Moderator24 Mar 2025#5

Picking up post #2: that is the part I would want checked first.

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

13 likes 16mo
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NardoneTL2Member27 Mar 2025#6

Coming back to post #4, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

26 likes 16mo
NK
n.kaufmannTL2 Moderator30 Mar 2025#7
IRenaudin, post #2: Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

0 likes in reply to #2 16mo
AK
a.kwiatkowskiTL2Member2 Apr 2025#8
methods_margin, post #4: Worth separating two things that post #3 runs together. Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an… Go to post

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

2 likes in reply to #4 16mo
IB
i.balogunTL2 Moderator5 Apr 2025#9

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

18 likes 16mo
DT
dexa_twice_yearlyTL38 Apr 2025#10
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chromatogramTL4Analytical chemist10 Apr 2025#11

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

21 likes 16mo
EK
e.kuuselaTL2 Moderator13 Apr 2025#12

post #11 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

9 likes 15mo
RI
retention_indexTL2Analytical chemist15 Apr 2025#13

I read post #11 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

1 like 15mo
MA
m.adeyemiTL2 Moderator18 Apr 2025#14
dexa_twice_yearly, post #10: I read post #8 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot. Go to post

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

0 likes in reply to #10 15mo
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preregisteredTL3Research methods20 Apr 2025#15

On post #11 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

15 likes 15mo
RP
r.petrovTL2 Moderator23 Apr 2025#16

post #15 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

5 likes 15mo
AD
appeals_deskTL3Regular25 Apr 2025#17

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

0 likes 15mo
YR
y.rahimiTL2 Moderator28 Apr 2025#18
preregistered, post #15: On post #11 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification. Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

30 likes in reply to #15 15mo
LI
l.ibarraTL2Regular30 Apr 2025#19

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

0 likes 15mo
AK
a.kirchnerTL2 Moderator2 May 2025#20

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

20 likes 15mo
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WickramasingheTL2Member5 May 2025#21

post #20 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

0 likes 15mo
WM
w.moreauTL2 Moderator7 May 2025#22

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

0 likes 15mo
TS
taper_shiftTL3Regular9 May 2025#23
y.rahimi, post #18: Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis. Go to post

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

4 likes in reply to #18 15mo
BJ
b.jansenTL2 Moderator11 May 2025#24

Coming back to post #22, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

13 likes 15mo
BP
baseline_peakTL2Member14 May 2025 · edited#25

post #24 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

0 likes 14mo
JS
j.silvaTL2 Moderator16 May 2025#26

Worth separating two things that post #22 runs together.

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

2 likes 14mo
MS
m.stephanopoulosTL3Regular18 May 2025#27
l.ibarra, post #19: Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting. Go to post

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

8 likes in reply to #19 14mo
ZI
z.iyerTL2 Moderator20 May 2025#28

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

19 likes 14mo
VS
vial_slopeTL3Regular22 May 2025#29

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

7 likes 14mo
VM
v.malinowskiTL2 Moderator24 May 2025#30
b.jansen, post #24: Coming back to post #22, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or… Go to post

On post #26 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

4 likes in reply to #24 14mo