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Evidence · Trials · continued

Coming back to: Sample size calculations, read backwards from the published number posts 61–89

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

NC
n.cardosoTL2 Moderator23 Jul 2025#61

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

0 likes 12mo
OL
o.lindgrenTL2Regular25 Jul 2025 · edited#62
preregistered, post #15: On post #11 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification. Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

4 likes in reply to #15 12mo
RL
r.lundgrenTL2 Moderator27 Jul 2025#63

This follows post #60 rather than contradicting it.

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

12 likes 12mo
DM
d.moreauTL2Regular28 Jul 2025#64

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

25 likes 12mo
HB
h.bakkerTL2 Moderator30 Jul 2025#65

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

0 likes 12mo
PE
ppm_errorTL3Analytical chemist1 Aug 2025#66
taper_shift, post #23: For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use. Go to post

On post #62 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

1 like in reply to #23 12mo
AP
a.pereiraTL2 Moderator3 Aug 2025#67

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

7 likes 12mo
FP
forest_plotTL3Evidence synthesis4 Aug 2025#68

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

18 likes 12mo
VB
v.bruunTL2 Moderator6 Aug 2025#69

post #68 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

0 likes 12mo
DB
d.bramleyTL3Regular8 Aug 2025#70
IRenaudin, post #2: Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

Worth separating two things that post #66 runs together.

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

0 likes in reply to #2 12mo
RI
r.ilungaTL2 Moderator10 Aug 2025#71
n.villalobos, post #38: Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit. Go to post

Coming back to post #69, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

0 likes in reply to #38 12mo
IL
integrator_logTL3Regular11 Aug 2025#72

Picking up post #69: that is the part I would want checked first.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

23 likes 12mo
FL
f.lindholmTL2 Moderator13 Aug 2025#73

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

11 likes 11mo
BS
buffer_sheetTL3Regular15 Aug 2025 · edited#74

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

3 likes 11mo
BW
b.wikstromTL217 Aug 2025#75
BE
bench_entryTL3Regular18 Aug 2025#76

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

17 likes 11mo
PD
p.dialloTL2 Moderator20 Aug 2025#77

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

6 likes 11mo
BJ
b.jankowiakTL3Regular22 Aug 2025#78
b.wikstrom, post #75: I read post #73 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term… Go to post

post #77 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

1 like in reply to #75 11mo
FI
f.ibarraTL2 Moderator23 Aug 2025#79

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

24 likes 11mo
SC
septum_checkTL1Member25 Aug 2025#80

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

11 likes 11mo
TS
t.steenkampTL2Member27 Aug 2025#81

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

1 like 11mo
KA
k.adeyemiTL2 Moderator28 Aug 2025#82

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

7 likes 11mo
HH
h.hutchingsTL1Member30 Aug 2025#83
f.ibarra, post #79: Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

25 likes in reply to #79 11mo
AW
ai.wikstromTL2 Moderator1 Sep 2025#84

Worth separating two things that post #80 runs together.

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

0 likes 11mo
LS
l.sarkissianTL2Member2 Sep 2025 · edited#85

Picking up post #82: that is the part I would want checked first.

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

4 likes 11mo
CN
c.nybergTL2 Moderator4 Sep 2025#86
n.nyberg, post #45: Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting. Go to post

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

12 likes in reply to #45 11mo
I
IHollingworthTL2Member6 Sep 2025#87
buffer_sheet, post #74: Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting. Go to post

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

0 likes in reply to #74 11mo
MM
m.marchettiTL2 Moderator7 Sep 2025#88

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

0 likes 11mo
CD
cannula_driftTL3Regular9 Sep 2025#89

This follows post #86 rather than contradicting it.

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

7 likes 11mo
Promoted into the documentation commons. The content of this topic is maintained at Retatrutide phase 2 (obesity) — trial digest, with named maintainers and a review date. The promotion was discussed in doc review. Corrections are best raised against the document, which is the version that gets kept current.

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