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Evidence · Journal club

Journal club: STEP 4 and what a withdrawal design can prove — one year on

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TD
t.dumitruTL2 Moderator13 Oct 2024#1

Journal club: STEP 4 and what a withdrawal design can prove — one year on Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did.

Session topic: SURMOUNT-OSA (N Engl J Med, 2024). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has.

The question I would like us to start with is what the trial set out to estimate, rather than what it found. Once that is on the table we can talk about whether the design could have answered it, and only then about the numbers.

Specific things I would like covered: the population and how far it generalises, how discontinuation was handled, whether the comparator was a fair one, and what the absolute rather than relative effect looks like.

I will summarise at the end and the summary will feed the relevant digest page.

11 likes 21mo
SV
s.vukovicTL2 Moderator21 Oct 2024#2

the opening post is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

1 like 21mo
OF
outline_firstTL3Wiki editor27 Oct 2024#3
t.dumitru, post #1: Journal club: STEP 4 and what a withdrawal design can prove — one year on Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did. Session topic: SURMOUNT-OSA ( N Engl J Med , 2024). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has. The question I would like us to start with is… Go to post

Critical appraisal template: (1) What did the trial set out to estimate? (2) Could the design answer that question? (3) Was the population sufficiently similar to your population to apply the results? (4) What was the absolute effect, not just the relative one? (5) What are the two strongest criticisms available?

30 likes in reply to #1 21mo
SO
se.okaforTL2 Moderator1 Nov 2024 · edited#4

Session format: read the paper before posting. The discussion is much better when everyone has. Start with the estimand and population, then methods, then results, then limitations. That order makes critique coherent.

15 likes 21mo
CT
cannula_traceTL3Regular6 Nov 2024#5

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

3 likes 21mo
GA
g.amankwahTL2 Moderator10 Nov 2024#6

SURMOUNT-OSA (N Engl J Med 2024): Tirzepatide in obstructive sleep apnoea, using an objective physiological endpoint. Notable because soft endpoints are avoided. Two parallel trials addressed the confounder directly.

0 likes 21mo
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BirkelandTL3Regular14 Nov 2024#7
t.dumitru, post #1: Journal club: STEP 4 and what a withdrawal design can prove — one year on Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did. Session topic: SURMOUNT-OSA ( N Engl J Med , 2024). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has. The question I would like us to start with is… Go to post

Coming back to post #5, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

FLOW (N Engl J Med 2024): Semaglutide renal outcomes in type 2 diabetes and chronic kidney disease. Stopped early for efficacy. Component-by-component analysis is essential because the components differ in how patient-important they are.

23 likes in reply to #1 20mo
VR
v.rautioTL2 Moderator18 Nov 2024#8

SURMOUNT-1 (N Engl J Med 2022): Tirzepatide obesity trial. The largest mean weight reduction for a pharmacological intervention at publication. Read the categorical thresholds carefully — they can exaggerate separation.

10 likes 20mo
NA
n.abernathyTL3Analytical chemist22 Nov 2024 · edited#9

Worth separating two things that post #5 runs together.

SURPASS-2 (N Engl J Med 2021): Direct comparison of tirzepatide with semaglutide 1.0 mg. The 1.0 mg dose is not the highest available, which is the central and legitimate criticism of the head-to-head evidence.

1 like 20mo
SM
s.mbekiTL2 Moderator26 Nov 2024#10
t.dumitru, post #1: Journal club: STEP 4 and what a withdrawal design can prove — one year on Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did. Session topic: SURMOUNT-OSA ( N Engl J Med , 2024). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has. The question I would like us to start with is… Go to post

SOUL (N Engl J Med 2025): Oral semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes. Extends the cardiovascular evidence to the oral formulation. Note that oral bioavailability is lower and more variable than injectable.

0 likes in reply to #1 20mo
LV
l.vukovicTL2 Moderator30 Nov 2024#11
Birkeland, post #7: Coming back to post #5, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. FLOW (N Engl J Med 2024): Semaglutide renal outcomes in type 2 diabetes and chronic kidney disease. Stopped early for efficacy. Component-by-component analysis is essential because the components differ in how patient-important they are. Go to post

TRIUMPH (ongoing): Retatrutide phase 3. No results yet. Nothing should be attributed to it because it has not finished. When it does, this discussion will return to it.

0 likes in reply to #7 20mo
SL
sleep_logTL2Regular4 Dec 2024 · edited#12
s.mbeki, post #10: SOUL (N Engl J Med 2025): Oral semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes. Extends the cardiovascular evidence to the oral formulation. Note that oral bioavailability is lower and more variable than injectable. Go to post

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

4 likes in reply to #10 20mo
II
i.ilungaTL2 Moderator7 Dec 2024#13

Picking up post #10: that is the part I would want checked first.

PIONEER 6 (N Engl J Med 2019): Cardiovascular safety trial for oral semaglutide, not efficacy. Non-inferiority for safety was met. The trial was not designed to establish benefit, though point estimates favoured the drug.

17 likes 20mo
IA
i.aranda_esTL2Translator · ES11 Dec 2024#14

Coming back to post #12, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

SELECT (N Engl J Med 2023): Semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes without diabetes. The first outcome trial in people without diabetes, which decoupled the cardiovascular argument from glucose control. Read the absolute numbers, not just the relative reduction.

0 likes 20mo
SR
sa.rasmussenTL2 Moderator14 Dec 2024#15

SOUL (N Engl J Med 2025): Oral semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes. Extends the cardiovascular evidence to the oral formulation. Note that oral bioavailability is lower and more variable than injectable.

0 likes 19mo
SG
s.grigorescuTL2Member18 Dec 2024#16
sa.rasmussen, post #15: SOUL (N Engl J Med 2025): Oral semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes. Extends the cardiovascular evidence to the oral formulation. Note that oral bioavailability is lower and more variable than injectable. Go to post

SURMOUNT-OSA (N Engl J Med 2024): Tirzepatide in obstructive sleep apnoea, using an objective physiological endpoint. Notable because soft endpoints are avoided. Two parallel trials addressed the confounder directly.

1 like in reply to #15 19mo
WV
w.verhoevenTL2 Moderator21 Dec 2024#17

This follows post #14 rather than contradicting it.

SURPASS-2 (N Engl J Med 2021): Direct comparison of tirzepatide with semaglutide 1.0 mg. The 1.0 mg dose is not the highest available, which is the central and legitimate criticism of the head-to-head evidence.

12 likes 19mo
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NicolaidesTL324 Dec 2024#18
YA
y.adebayoTL2 Moderator28 Dec 2024 · edited#19

TRIUMPH (ongoing): Retatrutide phase 3. No results yet. Nothing should be attributed to it because it has not finished. When it does, this discussion will return to it.

0 likes 19mo
EF
endo_fellow_rkTL3Endocrinology fellow31 Dec 2024#20
i.ilunga, post #13: Picking up post #10: that is the part I would want checked first. PIONEER 6 (N Engl J Med 2019): Cardiovascular safety trial for oral semaglutide, not efficacy. Non-inferiority for safety was met. The trial was not designed to establish benefit, though point estimates favoured the drug. Go to post

On post #16 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

PIONEER 6 (N Engl J Med 2019): Cardiovascular safety trial for oral semaglutide, not efficacy. Non-inferiority for safety was met. The trial was not designed to establish benefit, though point estimates favoured the drug.

0 likes in reply to #13 19mo
F
FFaulknerTL3Regular3 Jan 2025#21
s.grigorescu, post #16: SURMOUNT-OSA (N Engl J Med 2024): Tirzepatide in obstructive sleep apnoea, using an objective physiological endpoint. Notable because soft endpoints are avoided. Two parallel trials addressed the confounder directly. Go to post

Worth separating two things that post #17 runs together.

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

5 likes in reply to #16 19mo
VO
v.okonkwoTL2 Moderator6 Jan 2025#22
sleep_log, post #12: Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive. Go to post

post #21 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

SELECT (N Engl J Med 2023): Semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes without diabetes. The first outcome trial in people without diabetes, which decoupled the cardiovascular argument from glucose control. Read the absolute numbers, not just the relative reduction.

0 likes in reply to #12 19mo
TS
taper_shiftTL3Regular10 Jan 2025#23

FLOW (N Engl J Med 2024): Semaglutide renal outcomes in type 2 diabetes and chronic kidney disease. Stopped early for efficacy. Component-by-component analysis is essential because the components differ in how patient-important they are.

0 likes 19mo
JC
j.cabreraTL2 Moderator13 Jan 2025#24

Critical appraisal template: (1) What did the trial set out to estimate? (2) Could the design answer that question? (3) Was the population sufficiently similar to your population to apply the results? (4) What was the absolute effect, not just the relative one? (5) What are the two strongest criticisms available?

20 likes 18mo
O
OstrowskiTL2Member16 Jan 2025#25
s.grigorescu, post #16: SURMOUNT-OSA (N Engl J Med 2024): Tirzepatide in obstructive sleep apnoea, using an objective physiological endpoint. Notable because soft endpoints are avoided. Two parallel trials addressed the confounder directly. Go to post

Session format: read the paper before posting. The discussion is much better when everyone has. Start with the estimand and population, then methods, then results, then limitations. That order makes critique coherent.

2 likes in reply to #16 18mo
HN
h.nwosuTL2 Moderator19 Jan 2025#26

post #25 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

STEP 1 (N Engl J Med 2021): The pivotal obesity trial for semaglutide and the reference point for most subsequent comparison. Mean weight reduction was substantially larger than anything previously achieved pharmacologically.

0 likes 18mo
T
ThibodeauTL3Regular22 Jan 2025#27

Coming back to post #25, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

SOUL (N Engl J Med 2025): Oral semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes. Extends the cardiovascular evidence to the oral formulation. Note that oral bioavailability is lower and more variable than injectable.

28 likes 18mo
FC
f.chowdhuryTL2 Moderator25 Jan 2025#28

TRIUMPH (ongoing): Retatrutide phase 3. No results yet. Nothing should be attributed to it because it has not finished. When it does, this discussion will return to it.

14 likes 18mo
LO
l.oseiTL2 Moderator28 Jan 2025#29

SURMOUNT-1 (N Engl J Med 2022): Tirzepatide obesity trial. The largest mean weight reduction for a pharmacological intervention at publication. Read the categorical thresholds carefully — they can exaggerate separation.

13 likes 18mo
MR
m.restrepoTL2 Moderator31 Jan 2025#30
s.mbeki, post #10: SOUL (N Engl J Med 2025): Oral semaglutide cardiovascular outcomes. Extends the cardiovascular evidence to the oral formulation. Note that oral bioavailability is lower and more variable than injectable. Go to post

SURPASS-2 (N Engl J Med 2021): Direct comparison of tirzepatide with semaglutide 1.0 mg. The 1.0 mg dose is not the highest available, which is the central and legitimate criticism of the head-to-head evidence.

4 likes in reply to #10 18mo