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Compounds · Repair & healing peptides · continued

Reading a preclinical wound-healing model and its relevance to a human tendon posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

WN
w.novakTL3Regular11 Nov 2024#31
s.coelho, post #13: BPC-157: the preclinical literature is extensive, mostly from a small number of research groups, and reports effects across a wide range of injury models. The breadth of reported effects is itself worth noting — a compound that improves outcomes in tendon, muscle, gut, nerve and bone through a single mechanism would be remarkable, and… Go to post

BPC-157: the preclinical literature is extensive, mostly from a small number of research groups, and reports effects across a wide range of injury models. The breadth of reported effects is itself worth noting — a compound that improves outcomes in tendon, muscle, gut, nerve and bone through a single mechanism would be remarkable, and remarkable claims deserve proportionate scrutiny.

18 likes in reply to #13 21mo
YA
y.asanteTL2 Moderator11 Nov 2024#32

This follows post #29 rather than contradicting it.

The distinction between "no evidence it works" and "evidence it does not work": we have the first for these compounds. That is genuinely different from the second and the distinction matters, but it also means treatment plans based on these compounds are being built on theoretical grounds, not empirical ones.

7 likes 21mo
JW
journalclub_wrenTL3Regular11 Nov 2024#33

The absence of adequately powered published randomised human trials is the central fact about BPC-157. This site states that plainly rather than hedging. Mechanistic plausibility does not substitute for it.

1 like 21mo
RF
ro.friskTL2 Moderator11 Nov 2024#34

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

0 likes 21mo
YM
y.mensahTL3Wiki editor11 Nov 2024#35
n.stanescu, post #11: Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive. Go to post

Reading a preclinical wound-healing model: the model shows whether a mechanism is plausible in a specific context. It does not show magnitude of effect in humans, does not show safety profile in humans, and does not show whether the effect survives in a more complex biological system. That is not a criticism of preclinical work — it is what preclinical work is for.

25 likes in reply to #11 21mo
HE
h.espinozaTL2 Moderator12 Nov 2024#36
ar.petrov, post #3: post #2 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit. Oral versus injected administration claims for BPC-157: the preclinical work studied injection. Oral claims are common in supplier marketing and poorly supported by published evidence. If you are comparing orality between compounds, that is a distinction… Go to post

Oral versus injected administration claims for BPC-157: the preclinical work studied injection. Oral claims are common in supplier marketing and poorly supported by published evidence. If you are comparing orality between compounds, that is a distinction worth noting.

12 likes in reply to #3 20mo
ST
slow_titratorTL2Regular12 Nov 2024 · edited#37

On post #33 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

4 likes 20mo
TK
t.karlsenTL2 Moderator12 Nov 2024#38

TB-500 is usually the 7-residue actin-binding fragment of thymosin beta-4, not the full 43-residue protein. The two are routinely conflated in supplier documentation and in the literature. Evidence about the full protein does not automatically apply to the fragment.

0 likes 20mo
PW
PharmNotes_WhitfieldTL4Pharmacist12 Nov 2024#39

I read post #37 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Stability of BPC-157 in solution: what has been measured in published work covers specific formulations under specific conditions. Extrapolating to a reconstituted preparation in a different diluent at a different concentration is an extrapolation, acknowledged as one.

0 likes 20mo
JF
j.fonsecaTL2 Moderator12 Nov 2024#40
j.mwangi, post #16: Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up. Go to post

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

17 likes in reply to #16 20mo
MI
m.ibarraTL2 Moderator12 Nov 2024#41
j.nwosu, post #12: The distinction between "no evidence it works" and "evidence it does not work": we have the first for these compounds. That is genuinely different from the second and the distinction matters, but it also means treatment plans based on these compounds are being built on theoretical grounds, not empirical ones. Go to post

Analytical identity of BPC-157: a 15-residue peptide with an unambiguous mass (≈1419.5 Da). Identity confirmation by LC-MS is trivially easy, which means there is no excuse for an unverified identity on this compound.

24 likes in reply to #12 20mo
MH
ms_hollowayTL4Mass spectrometrist12 Nov 2024#42

Why plausible mechanism is not evidence of effect: a mechanism that is chemically or biologically plausible can fail in practice for dozens of reasons — bioavailability, off-target effects, metabolism, clearance, or simply that the mechanism does not do what the theory predicts in a living system. Plausibility is necessary for hope but not sufficient for evidence.

0 likes 20mo
LS
l.salinasTL2 Moderator13 Nov 2024 · edited#43

post #42 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Publication patterns in the BPC-157 literature: a large proportion of the evidence comes from one research group. That is not necessarily wrong — one group can do excellent work — but it is worth noting when evaluating the breadth of support for a claim.

3 likes 20mo
SL
s.leclercTL4 Moderator13 Nov 2024#44

On post #40 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

What would change the position on repair peptides: adequately powered, published, peer-reviewed randomised controlled human trials with pre-specified outcomes. That is the standard applied to every other therapeutic claim on this site and it is the standard applied here.

11 likes 20mo
CC
ch.correiaTL2 Moderator13 Nov 2024#45
b.vanhecke, post #17: Coming back to post #15, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. Why plausible mechanism is not evidence of effect: a mechanism that is chemically or biologically plausible can fail in practice for dozens of reasons — bioavailability, off-target effects, metabolism, clearance, or simply that the mechanism does not… Go to post

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

17 likes in reply to #17 20mo
TH
TL4_HalvorsenTL4Leader · Journal club13 Nov 2024#46

I read post #44 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Reading a preclinical wound-healing model: the model shows whether a mechanism is plausible in a specific context. It does not show magnitude of effect in humans, does not show safety profile in humans, and does not show whether the effect survives in a more complex biological system. That is not a criticism of preclinical work — it is what preclinical work is for.

0 likes 20mo
YA
y.adebayoTL2 Moderator13 Nov 2024#47

post #46 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

The absence of adequately powered published randomised human trials is the central fact about BPC-157. This site states that plainly rather than hedging. Mechanistic plausibility does not substitute for it.

1 like 20mo
EF
endo_fellow_rkTL3Endocrinology fellow13 Nov 2024#48

TB-500 is usually the 7-residue actin-binding fragment of thymosin beta-4, not the full 43-residue protein. The two are routinely conflated in supplier documentation and in the literature. Evidence about the full protein does not automatically apply to the fragment.

7 likes 20mo
MC
m.coelhoTL2 Moderator13 Nov 2024#49

Picking up post #46: that is the part I would want checked first.

The distinction between "no evidence it works" and "evidence it does not work": we have the first for these compounds. That is genuinely different from the second and the distinction matters, but it also means treatment plans based on these compounds are being built on theoretical grounds, not empirical ones.

0 likes 20mo
BS
b.solbergTL2 Moderator14 Nov 2024#50

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

1 like 20mo
PT
p.trevinoTL2 Moderator14 Nov 2024#51
b.solberg, post #50: Two things before anyone answers the substance. First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound. Go to post

Publication patterns in the BPC-157 literature: a large proportion of the evidence comes from one research group. That is not necessarily wrong — one group can do excellent work — but it is worth noting when evaluating the breadth of support for a claim.

16 likes in reply to #50 20mo
IS
isotonic_sheetTL314 Nov 2024#52
AZ
an.zamoraTL2 Moderator14 Nov 2024#53

Coming back to post #51, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

0 likes 20mo
R
RodriguesTL3Regular14 Nov 2024#54

Picking up post #51: that is the part I would want checked first.

Analytical identity of BPC-157: a 15-residue peptide with an unambiguous mass (≈1419.5 Da). Identity confirmation by LC-MS is trivially easy, which means there is no excuse for an unverified identity on this compound.

31 likes 20mo
YA
y.adeyemiTL2 Moderator14 Nov 2024#55

For anyone arriving from search engines: this subcategory discusses published preclinical work and the absence of published clinical work. It does not endorse or recommend these compounds.

22 likes 20mo
MM
maintenance_modeTL3Regular14 Nov 2024#56

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

10 likes 20mo
HB
h.brandtTL2 Moderator15 Nov 2024#57

BPC-157: the preclinical literature is extensive, mostly from a small number of research groups, and reports effects across a wide range of injury models. The breadth of reported effects is itself worth noting — a compound that improves outcomes in tendon, muscle, gut, nerve and bone through a single mechanism would be remarkable, and remarkable claims deserve proportionate scrutiny.

1 like 20mo
RV
r.venkatesanTL3Wiki editor15 Nov 2024#58
o.vogel, post #7: Analytical identity of BPC-157: a 15-residue peptide with an unambiguous mass (≈1419.5 Da). Identity confirmation by LC-MS is trivially easy, which means there is no excuse for an unverified identity on this compound. Go to post

This follows post #55 rather than contradicting it.

Oral versus injected administration claims for BPC-157: the preclinical work studied injection. Oral claims are common in supplier marketing and poorly supported by published evidence. If you are comparing orality between compounds, that is a distinction worth noting.

0 likes in reply to #7 20mo
SK
s.kuuselaTL2 Moderator15 Nov 2024#59
TL4_Halvorsen, post #46: I read post #44 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Reading a preclinical wound-healing model: the model shows whether a mechanism is plausible in a specific context. It does not show magnitude of effect in humans, does not show safety profile in humans, and does not show whether the effect survives in a more… Go to post

On post #55 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

30 likes in reply to #46 20mo
B
batchlogTL3Regular15 Nov 2024#60
journalclub_wren, post #33: The absence of adequately powered published randomised human trials is the central fact about BPC-157. This site states that plainly rather than hedging. Mechanistic plausibility does not substitute for it. Go to post

post #59 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Why plausible mechanism is not evidence of effect: a mechanism that is chemically or biologically plausible can fail in practice for dozens of reasons — bioavailability, off-target effects, metabolism, clearance, or simply that the mechanism does not do what the theory predicts in a living system. Plausibility is necessary for hope but not sufficient for evidence.

15 likes in reply to #33 20mo