The Peptide CommonsEst. May 2024
Independent. We sell nothing and are affiliated with no manufacturer or pharmacy. Every moderation action is logged in public
Compounds · Repair & healing peptides

Reading a preclinical wound-healing model and its relevance to a human tendon

Wiki Closed 1 hidden by flag
P
PSkarbekTL3Regular5 Nov 2024#1

On the subject in the title: Reading a preclinical wound-healing model and its relevance to a human tendon Working notes rather than a conclusion.

I have seen PIONEER 6 (N Engl J Med, 2019) cited in support of a claim I do not think it supports, twice this month, so I would like to work through what it actually shows.

My reading is that the trial is sound for its own question and is being stretched to answer a different one. I might be wrong about that, which is why this is a topic rather than a correction.

What I would like from this discussion: someone who disagrees with me to say why, with the section of the paper they are relying on.

29 likes 21mo
MD
m.duarteTL2 Moderator5 Nov 2024 · edited#2

TB-500 is usually the 7-residue actin-binding fragment of thymosin beta-4, not the full 43-residue protein. The two are routinely conflated in supplier documentation and in the literature. Evidence about the full protein does not automatically apply to the fragment.

31 likes 21mo
AP
ar.petrovTL2 Moderator6 Nov 2024#3
Community wiki post. Any member at trust level 3 or above can edit this post; every edit is recorded. Last edited by revision_history on 29 Apr 2025.
  • 25 Nov 2024 — bench_notes: Corrected an arithmetic slip in the second example.
  • 23 Jan 2025 — KLindqvist: Plain-language pass on the opening paragraph.
  • 29 Apr 2025 — revision_history: Restructured into sections so the outline is navigable.
Editors: bench_notes, KLindqvist, revision_history

post #2 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Oral versus injected administration claims for BPC-157: the preclinical work studied injection. Oral claims are common in supplier marketing and poorly supported by published evidence. If you are comparing orality between compounds, that is a distinction worth noting.

0 likes 21mo
FF
f.fenwickTL3Regular6 Nov 2024#4
PSkarbek, post #1: On the subject in the title: Reading a preclinical wound-healing model and its relevance to a human tendon Working notes rather than a conclusion. I have seen PIONEER 6 ( N Engl J Med , 2019) cited in support of a claim I do not think it supports, twice this month, so I would like to work through what it actually shows. My reading is… Go to post

Worth separating two things that the opening post runs together.

Reading a preclinical wound-healing model: the model shows whether a mechanism is plausible in a specific context. It does not show magnitude of effect in humans, does not show safety profile in humans, and does not show whether the effect survives in a more complex biological system. That is not a criticism of preclinical work — it is what preclinical work is for.

3 likes in reply to #1 21mo
RD
r.danquahTL2 Moderator6 Nov 2024#5

Picking up post #2: that is the part I would want checked first.

Stability of BPC-157 in solution: what has been measured in published work covers specific formulations under specific conditions. Extrapolating to a reconstituted preparation in a different diluent at a different concentration is an extrapolation, acknowledged as one.

22 likes 21mo
AN
a.nwosuTL2 Moderator6 Nov 2024#6

Publication patterns in the BPC-157 literature: a large proportion of the evidence comes from one research group. That is not necessarily wrong — one group can do excellent work — but it is worth noting when evaluating the breadth of support for a claim.

0 likes 21mo
OV
o.vogelTL2 Moderator7 Nov 2024#7

Analytical identity of BPC-157: a 15-residue peptide with an unambiguous mass (≈1419.5 Da). Identity confirmation by LC-MS is trivially easy, which means there is no excuse for an unverified identity on this compound.

1 like 21mo
RV
r.villalobosTL2 Moderator7 Nov 2024#8
o.vogel, post #7: Analytical identity of BPC-157: a 15-residue peptide with an unambiguous mass (≈1419.5 Da). Identity confirmation by LC-MS is trivially easy, which means there is no excuse for an unverified identity on this compound. Go to post

On post #4 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

6 likes in reply to #7 21mo
ZV
z.vogelTL2 Moderator7 Nov 2024 · edited#9

This follows post #6 rather than contradicting it.

What would change the position on repair peptides: adequately powered, published, peer-reviewed randomised controlled human trials with pre-specified outcomes. That is the standard applied to every other therapeutic claim on this site and it is the standard applied here.

30 likes 21mo
DW
diluent_watchTL2Member7 Nov 2024#10

I read post #8 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

For anyone arriving from search engines: this subcategory discusses published preclinical work and the absence of published clinical work. It does not endorse or recommend these compounds.

0 likes 21mo
NS
n.stanescuTL2 Moderator7 Nov 2024#11

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

15 likes 21mo
JN
j.nwosuTL2 Moderator8 Nov 2024#12

The distinction between "no evidence it works" and "evidence it does not work": we have the first for these compounds. That is genuinely different from the second and the distinction matters, but it also means treatment plans based on these compounds are being built on theoretical grounds, not empirical ones.

5 likes 21mo
SC
s.coelhoTL2 Moderator8 Nov 2024#13
diluent_watch, post #10: I read post #8 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. For anyone arriving from search engines: this subcategory discusses published preclinical work and the absence of published clinical work. It does not endorse or recommend these compounds. Go to post

BPC-157: the preclinical literature is extensive, mostly from a small number of research groups, and reports effects across a wide range of injury models. The breadth of reported effects is itself worth noting — a compound that improves outcomes in tendon, muscle, gut, nerve and bone through a single mechanism would be remarkable, and remarkable claims deserve proportionate scrutiny.

0 likes in reply to #10 21mo
NH
n.haddadTL2 Moderator8 Nov 2024#14
r.villalobos, post #8: On post #4 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification. Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

This follows post #11 rather than contradicting it.

The absence of adequately powered published randomised human trials is the central fact about BPC-157. This site states that plainly rather than hedging. Mechanistic plausibility does not substitute for it.

29 likes in reply to #8 21mo
DE
d.eriksenTL28 Nov 2024#15
JM
j.mwangiTL4 Moderator8 Nov 2024 · edited#16
Staff post. Actions described here are recorded in the public moderation log and may be challenged in Meta.

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

2 likes 21mo
BV
b.vanheckeTL2 Moderator8 Nov 2024#17

Coming back to post #15, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Why plausible mechanism is not evidence of effect: a mechanism that is chemically or biologically plausible can fail in practice for dozens of reasons — bioavailability, off-target effects, metabolism, clearance, or simply that the mechanism does not do what the theory predicts in a living system. Plausibility is necessary for hope but not sufficient for evidence.

0 likes 21mo
MS
m.strand_rphTL3Pharmacist9 Nov 2024#18
j.nwosu, post #12: The distinction between "no evidence it works" and "evidence it does not work": we have the first for these compounds. That is genuinely different from the second and the distinction matters, but it also means treatment plans based on these compounds are being built on theoretical grounds, not empirical ones. Go to post

Picking up post #15: that is the part I would want checked first.

Analytical identity of BPC-157: a 15-residue peptide with an unambiguous mass (≈1419.5 Da). Identity confirmation by LC-MS is trivially easy, which means there is no excuse for an unverified identity on this compound.

22 likes in reply to #12 21mo
RP
r.petrovTL2 Moderator9 Nov 2024#19

Worth separating two things that post #15 runs together.

Publication patterns in the BPC-157 literature: a large proportion of the evidence comes from one research group. That is not necessarily wrong — one group can do excellent work — but it is worth noting when evaluating the breadth of support for a claim.

28 likes 21mo
PE
ppm_errorTL3Analytical chemist9 Nov 2024#20
m.strand_rph, post #18: Picking up post #15: that is the part I would want checked first. Analytical identity of BPC-157: a 15-residue peptide with an unambiguous mass (≈1419.5 Da). Identity confirmation by LC-MS is trivially easy, which means there is no excuse for an unverified identity on this compound. Go to post

post #19 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Stability of BPC-157 in solution: what has been measured in published work covers specific formulations under specific conditions. Extrapolating to a reconstituted preparation in a different diluent at a different concentration is an extrapolation, acknowledged as one.

14 likes in reply to #18 21mo
SC
s.cardosoTL2 Moderator9 Nov 2024#21
r.danquah, post #5: Picking up post #2: that is the part I would want checked first. Stability of BPC-157 in solution: what has been measured in published work covers specific formulations under specific conditions. Extrapolating to a reconstituted preparation in a different diluent at a different concentration is an extrapolation, acknowledged as one. Go to post

post #20 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

What would change the position on repair peptides: adequately powered, published, peer-reviewed randomised controlled human trials with pre-specified outcomes. That is the standard applied to every other therapeutic claim on this site and it is the standard applied here.

9 likes in reply to #5 21mo
JD
j.dahlbergTL2 Moderator9 Nov 2024#22

For anyone arriving from search engines: this subcategory discusses published preclinical work and the absence of published clinical work. It does not endorse or recommend these compounds.

20 likes 21mo
TW
t.wojcikTL2 Moderator9 Nov 2024#23

The distinction between "no evidence it works" and "evidence it does not work": we have the first for these compounds. That is genuinely different from the second and the distinction matters, but it also means treatment plans based on these compounds are being built on theoretical grounds, not empirical ones.

0 likes 21mo
AK
a.kowalskiTL2 Moderator10 Nov 2024#24
s.cardoso, post #21: post #20 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different. What would change the position on repair peptides: adequately powered, published, peer-reviewed randomised controlled human trials with pre-specified outcomes. That is the standard applied to every other therapeutic claim on this site and it is the standard… Go to post

Coming back to post #22, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

BPC-157: the preclinical literature is extensive, mostly from a small number of research groups, and reports effects across a wide range of injury models. The breadth of reported effects is itself worth noting — a compound that improves outcomes in tendon, muscle, gut, nerve and bone through a single mechanism would be remarkable, and remarkable claims deserve proportionate scrutiny.

0 likes in reply to #21 21mo
EP
e.piresTL2 Moderator10 Nov 2024#25
ar.petrov, post #3: post #2 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit. Oral versus injected administration claims for BPC-157: the preclinical work studied injection. Oral claims are common in supplier marketing and poorly supported by published evidence. If you are comparing orality between compounds, that is a distinction… Go to post

post #24 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

The absence of adequately powered published randomised human trials is the central fact about BPC-157. This site states that plainly rather than hedging. Mechanistic plausibility does not substitute for it.

13 likes in reply to #3 21mo
SK
s.kimaniTL2 Moderator10 Nov 2024#26

Worth separating two things that post #22 runs together.

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

27 likes 21mo
HS
hana.satoTL4 Moderator10 Nov 2024#27
Staff post. Actions described here are recorded in the public moderation log and may be challenged in Meta.

TB-500 is usually the 7-residue actin-binding fragment of thymosin beta-4, not the full 43-residue protein. The two are routinely conflated in supplier documentation and in the literature. Evidence about the full protein does not automatically apply to the fragment.

0 likes 21mo
CO
c.ostergaardTL210 Nov 2024#28
ID
il.dumitruTL2 Moderator10 Nov 2024#29

Reading a preclinical wound-healing model: the model shows whether a mechanism is plausible in a specific context. It does not show magnitude of effect in humans, does not show safety profile in humans, and does not show whether the effect survives in a more complex biological system. That is not a criticism of preclinical work — it is what preclinical work is for.

19 likes 21mo
GH
g.haalandTL3Regular11 Nov 2024#30

On post #26 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

For anyone arriving from search engines: this subcategory discusses published preclinical work and the absence of published clinical work. It does not endorse or recommend these compounds.

0 likes 21mo