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Evidence · Trials · continued

Run-in periods and the population they select posts 91–120

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

IR
isotonic_reviewTL1Member31 Mar 2026#91
v.nascimento, post #32: This follows post #29 rather than contradicting it. Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of… Go to post

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

9 likes in reply to #32 4mo
KK
k.kimaniTL2 Moderator2 Apr 2026#92
h.karlsen, post #12: Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot. Go to post

post #91 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

2 likes in reply to #12 4mo
ZL
z.laurentTL2 Moderator3 Apr 2026#93

I read post #91 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

0 likes 4mo
KC
k.chukwuTL2 Moderator5 Apr 2026#94

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

21 likes 4mo
EL
e.lehtinenTL2 Moderator7 Apr 2026#95

On post #91 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

5 likes 4mo
HE
h.eriksenTL2 Moderator9 Apr 2026#96
m.achebe, post #22: Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results. Go to post

post #95 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

0 likes in reply to #22 4mo
TP
t.pereiraTL2 Moderator10 Apr 2026#97

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

29 likes 4mo
BA
b.aaltoTL2 Moderator12 Apr 2026#98

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

14 likes 4mo
TW
t.waldenstrmTL2Member14 Apr 2026 · edited#99

Worth separating two things that post #95 runs together.

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

2 likes 3mo
EK
ew.kuuselaTL2 Moderator15 Apr 2026#100
n.rahimi, post #33: Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis. Go to post

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

0 likes in reply to #33 3mo
NC
n.cardosoTL2 Moderator17 Apr 2026#101
dr_okonkwo, post #1: On the subject in the title: Run-in periods and the population they select Working notes rather than a conclusion. Session topic: PIONEER 6 ( N Engl J Med , 2019). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has. The question I would like us to start with is what the trial set out to estimate, rather than… Go to post

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

18 likes in reply to #1 3mo
P
preregisteredTL3Research methods19 Apr 2026#102

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

7 likes 3mo
AP
a.pereiraTL2 Moderator21 Apr 2026 · edited#103

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

0 likes 3mo
PE
ppm_errorTL3Analytical chemist22 Apr 2026#104

post #103 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

0 likes 3mo
YI
y.ibarraTL2 Moderator24 Apr 2026#105
k.chukwu, post #94: For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use. Go to post

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

25 likes in reply to #94 3mo
PN
plateau_notesTL2Regular26 Apr 2026#106
diluent_watch, post #72: Picking up post #69: that is the part I would want checked first. Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought,… Go to post

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

12 likes in reply to #72 3mo
NV
n.vukovicTL2 Moderator27 Apr 2026 · edited#107

On post #103 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

1 like 3mo
OL
o.lindgrenTL2Regular29 Apr 2026#108

post #107 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

0 likes 3mo
AN
a.nascimentoTL2 Moderator1 May 2026#109
a.kravchenko, post #86: Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit. Go to post

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

0 likes in reply to #86 3mo
KB
k.brandl_deTL3Translator · DE2 May 2026#110

This follows post #107 rather than contradicting it.

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

17 likes 3mo
MD
m.duarteTL2 Moderator4 May 2026#111

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

27 likes 3mo
OV
o.vogelTL2 Moderator6 May 2026#112

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

0 likes 3mo
RV
r.villalobosTL2 Moderator7 May 2026#113

Picking up post #110: that is the part I would want checked first.

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

4 likes 3mo
RD
r.danquahTL2 Moderator9 May 2026#114
h.bakker, post #48: Worth separating two things that post #44 runs together. Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of… Go to post

Coming back to post #112, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

13 likes in reply to #48 3mo
KF
k.fonsecaTL2 Moderator11 May 2026#115
a.kravchenko, post #86: Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit. Go to post

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

20 likes in reply to #86 3mo
KV
k.vanheckeTL2 Moderator12 May 2026#116

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

0 likes 3mo
KP
k.perrinTL2 Moderator14 May 2026#117

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

2 likes 2mo
BN
bench_notesTL4 Moderator16 May 2026#118
c.wijnberg, post #62: Worth separating two things that post #58 runs together. Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results. Go to post
Staff post. Actions described here are recorded in the public moderation log and may be challenged in Meta.

I read post #116 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

8 likes in reply to #62 2mo
AV
a.vukovicTL2 Moderator17 May 2026#119
preregistered, post #102: I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological. The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient. Go to post

post #118 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

0 likes in reply to #102 2mo
RA
r.aldana_pharmdTL4Pharmacist19 May 2026#120

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

2 likes 2mo