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Evidence · Trials

Second pass at: Trial registration and comparing the protocol with the paper

MP
mira.patelTL4 Admin26 May 2025#1

Posting this under the heading it deserves: Second pass at: Trial registration and comparing the protocol with the paper Everything below is what sits behind that.

I have seen SCALE (N Engl J Med, 2015) cited in support of a claim I do not think it supports, twice this month, so I would like to work through what it actually shows.

My reading is that the trial is sound for its own question and is being stretched to answer a different one. I might be wrong about that, which is why this is a topic rather than a correction.

What I would like from this discussion: someone who disagrees with me to say why, with the section of the paper they are relying on.

19 likes 14mo
SS
stopper_shiftTL1Member27 May 2025#2

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

22 likes 14mo
ND
n.dziedzicTL2 Moderator28 May 2025#3

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

0 likes 14mo
J
JFitzgibbonTL2Member29 May 2025#4

I read post #2 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

3 likes 14mo
MN
m.ndiayeTL2 Moderator30 May 2025#5

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

15 likes 14mo
HK
h.kjeldsenTL1Member31 May 2025#6
mira.patel, post #1: Posting this under the heading it deserves: Second pass at: Trial registration and comparing the protocol with the paper Everything below is what sits behind that. I have seen SCALE ( N Engl J Med , 2015) cited in support of a claim I do not think it supports, twice this month, so I would like to work through what it actually shows. My… Go to post

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

30 likes in reply to #1 14mo
SO
s.okonkwoTL2 Moderator31 May 2025#7

Picking up post #4: that is the part I would want checked first.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

1 like 14mo
CD
cohort_driftTL3Regular1 Jun 2025#8

Coming back to post #6, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

6 likes 14mo
LT
l.trevinoTL2 Moderator2 Jun 2025#9

post #8 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

3 likes 14mo
SR
s.rasmussenTL2 Moderator2 Jun 2025#10
n.dziedzic, post #3: For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use. Go to post

Worth separating two things that post #6 runs together.

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

11 likes in reply to #3 14mo
VM
v.milanoviTL3Regular3 Jun 2025#11

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

21 likes 14mo
FP
f.petrovTL2 Moderator4 Jun 2025#12
h.kjeldsen, post #6: The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions. Go to post

This follows post #9 rather than contradicting it.

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

9 likes in reply to #6 14mo
AS
a.stephanopoulosTL3Regular4 Jun 2025 · edited#13

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

2 likes 14mo
LC
l.cabreraTL2 Moderator5 Jun 2025#14

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

0 likes 14mo
SF
sterile_fileTL3Regular5 Jun 2025#15
f.petrov, post #12: This follows post #9 rather than contradicting it. For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use. Go to post

Coming back to post #13, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

29 likes in reply to #12 14mo
CM
c.marchettiTL2 Moderator6 Jun 2025#16
l.trevino, post #9: post #8 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit. I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological. The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this,… Go to post

Picking up post #13: that is the part I would want checked first.

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

14 likes in reply to #9 14mo
D
DOdendaalTL3Regular6 Jun 2025#17

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

5 likes 14mo
DV
d.vestergaardTL2 Moderator7 Jun 2025#18

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

0 likes 14mo
VT
vial_tableTL2Member7 Jun 2025#19

I read post #17 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

10 likes 14mo
SS
s.salgadoTL2 Moderator8 Jun 2025 · edited#20

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

3 likes 14mo
GT
g.tammTL2 Moderator8 Jun 2025#21

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

15 likes 14mo
N
NorringtonTL3Regular9 Jun 2025#22

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

30 likes 14mo
WV
w.verhoevenTL2 Moderator9 Jun 2025#23
s.okonkwo, post #7: Picking up post #4: that is the part I would want checked first. Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an… Go to post

post #22 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

1 like in reply to #7 14mo
N
NicolaidesTL3Regular10 Jun 2025#24

Worth separating two things that post #20 runs together.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

6 likes 14mo
HK
h.krastevTL2 Moderator10 Jun 2025#25

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

22 likes 14mo
TF
taper_fileTL3Regular11 Jun 2025#26

Coming back to post #24, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

0 likes 14mo
EK
e.kuipersTL2 Moderator11 Jun 2025#27
v.milanovi, post #11: Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity. Go to post

post #26 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

2 likes in reply to #11 14mo
LM
lyophil_marginTL3Regular12 Jun 2025#28
d.vestergaard, post #18: Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence. Go to post

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

10 likes in reply to #18 14mo
ZN
z.nakamuraTL2 Moderator12 Jun 2025#29

This follows post #26 rather than contradicting it.

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

29 likes 13mo
I
IbrahimoviTL2Member13 Jun 2025#30

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

0 likes 13mo