Nausea profile: some people report tirzepatide as less nausea-prone than semaglutide, others report it as more. The trial reported gastrointestinal effects broadly comparable in character. Individual variation is the largest factor.
20 likes 14mo
Compounds · Tirzepatide · continued
Tirzepatide in type 2 diabetes: the SURPASS programme, summarised honestly posts 91–120
This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1 · go to the accepted answer.
h.ferrari, post #11: Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up. Go to post
Storage and stability: published data on licensed tirzepatide formulations exists and is worth reading directly rather than through summarised claims. Reconstituted preparations in different diluents have not been studied and extrapolation from the licensed formulation is the best you can do.
post #92 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.
The 2.5 mg starting dose is not a therapeutic dose in the sense that weight loss is minimal at that dose. It is a tolerance-testing dose. Confusing the purpose of a starting dose with the purpose of a maintenance dose leads to false conclusions about efficacy.
0 likes 14mo
Worth separating two things that post #90 runs together.
Two things before anyone answers the substance.
First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.
5 likes 14mo
Thibodeau, post #75: post #74 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different. Mass and charge states: tirzepatide is about 4813.5 Da and on an electrospray instrument you would expect to see charge states mostly in the 2+ to 4+ range, the same as semaglutide. A doubly charged species would appear at about (4813.5 + 2 × 1.008) / 2 ≈… Go to post
Half-life difference: tirzepatide is about 5 days versus semaglutide's week-long. Practically, that means steady state is reached slightly faster and the post-dose swing is slightly larger. Most people do not report noticing the difference in practical terms.
s.cardoso, post #2: This follows the opening post rather than contradicting it. SURMOUNT-OSA is notable because it used an objective physiological endpoint, the apnoea-hypopnoea index, rather than a symptom scale. Two parallel trials, with and without positive airway pressure, addressed the confounder directly. The reduction was substantial in both. Go to post
SURPASS-2 compared tirzepatide with semaglutide 1.0 mg, the licensed diabetes dose at that time. It did not compare with semaglutide 2.4 mg, the highest approved dose. That is the central and legitimate criticism of the head-to-head evidence and it is worth remembering when people quote the trial.
For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.
2 likes 14mo
On post #94 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.
Mass and charge states: tirzepatide is about 4813.5 Da and on an electrospray instrument you would expect to see charge states mostly in the 2+ to 4+ range, the same as semaglutide. A doubly charged species would appear at about (4813.5 + 2 × 1.008) / 2 ≈ 2408.
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This follows post #96 rather than contradicting it.
I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.
The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.
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SURMOUNT-1 reported weight reduction of a magnitude that was the largest for a pharmacological intervention at that time of publication. It also reported a clear dose response across three doses. The categorical thresholds (people reaching 10%, 15%, 20% loss) got the most attention but read less informatively than the mean weight change.
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j.restrepo, post #60: Coming back to post #58, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. Mass and charge states: tirzepatide is about 4813.5 Da and on an electrospray instrument you would expect to see charge states mostly in the 2+ to 4+ range, the same as semaglutide. A doubly charged species would appear at about (4813.5 + 2 × 1.008) /… Go to post
This follows post #98 rather than contradicting it.
Titration schedules for tirzepatide have more dose steps than semaglutide partly because the compound is more potent and partly because the clinical programme used a finer gradation. That does not mean you cannot escalate on a coarser schedule if that suits you — the published schedule is not a lower bound.
I read post #100 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.
SURMOUNT-4 used a randomised withdrawal design: everyone titrated, then those on maintenance were randomised to continue or placebo. Continuation maintained effect; withdrawal was followed by regain. The finding is robust but it says nothing about a lower effective maintenance dose, because that was not studied.
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SURMOUNT-OSA is notable because it used an objective physiological endpoint, the apnoea-hypopnoea index, rather than a symptom scale. Two parallel trials, with and without positive airway pressure, addressed the confounder directly. The reduction was substantial in both.
27 likes 14mo
Birkeland, post #28: SURMOUNT-OSA is notable because it used an objective physiological endpoint, the apnoea-hypopnoea index, rather than a symptom scale. Two parallel trials, with and without positive airway pressure, addressed the confounder directly. The reduction was substantial in both. Go to post
Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.
The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.
h.castellanos, post #52: Half-life difference: tirzepatide is about 5 days versus semaglutide's week-long. Practically, that means steady state is reached slightly faster and the post-dose swing is slightly larger. Most people do not report noticing the difference in practical terms. Go to post
Dual agonism versus dose: how much of tirzepatide's effect is the GIP component and how much is simply achieving higher receptor engagement? The honest answer is that the question is not settled. Some of the effect is surely the GIP component, but the trial design does not decompose it.
Coming back to post #104, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.
The GIP component: GIP receptor agonism is thought to amplify the GLP-1 effect on satiety and energy expenditure, but how much of tirzepatide's effect is that and how much is simply achieving higher receptor occupancy remains genuinely open. The mechanistic literature is active.
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Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.
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k.fonseca, post #18: The GIP component: GIP receptor agonism is thought to amplify the GLP-1 effect on satiety and energy expenditure, but how much of tirzepatide's effect is that and how much is simply achieving higher receptor occupancy remains genuinely open. The mechanistic literature is active. Go to post
SURMOUNT-4 used a randomised withdrawal design: everyone titrated, then those on maintenance were randomised to continue or placebo. Continuation maintained effect; withdrawal was followed by regain. The finding is robust but it says nothing about a lower effective maintenance dose, because that was not studied.
The 2.5 mg starting dose is not a therapeutic dose in the sense that weight loss is minimal at that dose. It is a tolerance-testing dose. Confusing the purpose of a starting dose with the purpose of a maintenance dose leads to false conclusions about efficacy.
8 likes 13mo
Two things before anyone answers the substance.
First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.
19 likes 13mo
Worth separating two things that post #107 runs together.
Storage and stability: published data on licensed tirzepatide formulations exists and is worth reading directly rather than through summarised claims. Reconstituted preparations in different diluents have not been studied and extrapolation from the licensed formulation is the best you can do.
0 likes 13mo
Nausea profile: some people report tirzepatide as less nausea-prone than semaglutide, others report it as more. The trial reported gastrointestinal effects broadly comparable in character. Individual variation is the largest factor.
23 likes 13mo
g.ibarra, post #3: Worth separating two things that the opening post runs together. SURMOUNT-4 used a randomised withdrawal design: everyone titrated, then those on maintenance were randomised to continue or placebo. Continuation maintained effect; withdrawal was followed by regain. The finding is robust but it says nothing about a lower effective… Go to post
The GIP component: GIP receptor agonism is thought to amplify the GLP-1 effect on satiety and energy expenditure, but how much of tirzepatide's effect is that and how much is simply achieving higher receptor occupancy remains genuinely open. The mechanistic literature is active.
d.oyelaran, post #91: Nausea profile: some people report tirzepatide as less nausea-prone than semaglutide, others report it as more. The trial reported gastrointestinal effects broadly comparable in character. Individual variation is the largest factor. Go to post
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This follows post #111 rather than contradicting it.
Half-life difference: tirzepatide is about 5 days versus semaglutide's week-long. Practically, that means steady state is reached slightly faster and the post-dose swing is slightly larger. Most people do not report noticing the difference in practical terms.
On post #111 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.
SURMOUNT-OSA is notable because it used an objective physiological endpoint, the apnoea-hypopnoea index, rather than a symptom scale. Two parallel trials, with and without positive airway pressure, addressed the confounder directly. The reduction was substantial in both.
32 likes 13mo
post #115 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.
Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.
16 likes 13mo
Dual agonism versus dose: how much of tirzepatide's effect is the GIP component and how much is simply achieving higher receptor engagement? The honest answer is that the question is not settled. Some of the effect is surely the GIP component, but the trial design does not decompose it.
3 likes 13mo
m.ramos, post #82: SURMOUNT-4 used a randomised withdrawal design: everyone titrated, then those on maintenance were randomised to continue or placebo. Continuation maintained effect; withdrawal was followed by regain. The finding is robust but it says nothing about a lower effective maintenance dose, because that was not studied. Go to post
SURPASS-2 compared tirzepatide with semaglutide 1.0 mg, the licensed diabetes dose at that time. It did not compare with semaglutide 2.4 mg, the highest approved dose. That is the central and legitimate criticism of the head-to-head evidence and it is worth remembering when people quote the trial.
i.lehtinen, post #31: post #30 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different. SURMOUNT-1 reported weight reduction of a magnitude that was the largest for a pharmacological intervention at that time of publication. It also reported a clear dose response across three doses. The categorical thresholds (people reaching 10%, 15%, 20%… Go to post
SURMOUNT-1 reported weight reduction of a magnitude that was the largest for a pharmacological intervention at that time of publication. It also reported a clear dose response across three doses. The categorical thresholds (people reaching 10%, 15%, 20% loss) got the most attention but read less informatively than the mean weight change.
post #119 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.
Titration schedules for tirzepatide have more dose steps than semaglutide partly because the compound is more potent and partly because the clinical programme used a finer gradation. That does not mean you cannot escalate on a coarser schedule if that suits you — the published schedule is not a lower bound.
11 likes 13mo