The Peptide CommonsEst. May 2024
Independent. We sell nothing and are affiliated with no manufacturer or pharmacy. Every moderation action is logged in public
Analytics · Mass spectrometry

Why mass spectrometry cannot tell you about an epimer

D
DOdendaalTL3Regular7 Dec 2024#1

Why mass spectrometry cannot tell you about an epimer I have a specific reason for asking rather than idle curiosity, and the context is below.

Posting the method first, because I know what the first three replies will otherwise be.

  • Column: C18, 4.6 x 250 mm, 5 um
  • Mobile phase: 0.1% TFA in water / 0.1% TFA in acetonitrile
  • Gradient: 14% to 62% organic over 26 minutes
  • Detection: 280 nm
  • Injection: 5 uL
  • Sample: tirzepatide, reconstituted to 1.0 mg/mL, injected within an hour

The main peak integrates at 97.6% of total area. There is a small feature on the trailing edge that I cannot decide is a shoulder or a baseline artefact, and that is what I am actually asking about.

0 likes 20mo
AA
a.aguirreTL2 Moderator10 Dec 2024 · edited#2

Quantitation by MS: most quantitation is done by LC-UV detection at 214 nm, not by MS, because extinction coefficients are better known. MS can quantify if an internal standard is used but that requires preparation.

27 likes 20mo
PI
p.iyer_pharmdTL3Pharmacist12 Dec 2024#3

I read the opening post twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Electrospray ionisation produces multiply charged ions. For a 4 kDa peptide you expect mostly 2+, 3+, and 4+ charge states. Reading an electrospray spectrum means recognizing the envelope, not looking for one peak.

8 likes 19mo
NO
n.okwuosaTL2 Moderator14 Dec 2024#4
a.aguirre, post #2: Quantitation by MS: most quantitation is done by LC-UV detection at 214 nm, not by MS, because extinction coefficients are better known. MS can quantify if an internal standard is used but that requires preparation. Go to post

Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers).

2 likes in reply to #2 19mo
SS
system_suitabilityTL316 Dec 2024#5
HI
h.iyerTL2 Moderator18 Dec 2024#6

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

20 likes 19mo
KO
k.otieno_statsTL3Statistician19 Dec 2024#7

Coming back to post #5, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Desalting before analysis: some samples need desalting to remove salts that suppress the peptide signal. Report whether desalting was used, because it can affect the apparent ionization efficiency and the reported purity.

5 likes 19mo
NI
n.ibarraTL2 Moderator21 Dec 2024#8
h.iyer, post #6: Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up. Go to post

Picking up post #5: that is the part I would want checked first.

Tandem mass spectrometry: MS/MS fragments the molecular ion and uses fragment masses to confirm identity and detect modifications. A simple identity confirmation by LC-MS does not address post-translational modifications or impurities with the same or very close mass.

0 likes in reply to #6 19mo
QZ
q.zhao_qaTL3Quality assurance22 Dec 2024#9
n.okwuosa, post #4: Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers). Go to post

Worth separating two things that post #5 runs together.

What mass accuracy establishes: the measured mass is consistent with a specific composition. What it does not establish: purity, sequence order, stereochemistry, or the absence of an isobaric species. Every one of those requires something else.

2 likes in reply to #4 19mo
ES
e.steinerTL2 Moderator24 Dec 2024#10
p.iyer_pharmd, post #3: I read the opening post twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Electrospray ionisation produces multiply charged ions. For a 4 kDa peptide you expect mostly 2+, 3+, and 4+ charge states. Reading an electrospray spectrum means recognizing the envelope, not looking for one peak. Go to post

Mass accuracy is expressed in parts per million. It is the difference between observed and theoretical mass divided by theoretical mass, multiplied by a million. A high-resolution instrument in good calibration achieves low single-digit ppm on a peptide of this size.

0 likes in reply to #3 19mo
GP
g.pemberton_ukTL3Regional · UK25 Dec 2024#11

post #10 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

30 likes 19mo
AV
ai.vukovicTL2 Moderator27 Dec 2024#12

Charge states observed: for semaglutide (4113.6 Da) the doubly charged ion appears at m/z ≈ 2057, triply charged at ≈ 1371, quadruply at ≈ 1029. Those are the positions to look for; the heights depend on the ionization efficiency.

0 likes 19mo
CR
crossover_reviewTL3Regular28 Dec 2024#13
k.otieno_stats, post #7: Coming back to post #5, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. Desalting before analysis: some samples need desalting to remove salts that suppress the peptide signal. Report whether desalting was used, because it can affect the apparent ionization efficiency and the reported purity. Go to post

Common adducts: sodium adds ≈22, potassium adds ≈38 compared to hydrogen. A [M+Na]+ peak is common and its mass is predictable from the base mass.

5 likes in reply to #7 19mo
KB
k.batistaTL2 Moderator29 Dec 2024#14
e.steiner, post #10: Mass accuracy is expressed in parts per million. It is the difference between observed and theoretical mass divided by theoretical mass, multiplied by a million. A high-resolution instrument in good calibration achieves low single-digit ppm on a peptide of this size. Go to post

Coming back to post #12, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Calibration matters: a high-resolution instrument out of calibration can report mass with ppm error large enough to be uninformative. Check when the instrument was last calibrated before trusting the reported accuracy.

15 likes in reply to #10 19mo
MM
methods_marginTL3Regular31 Dec 2024#15

Tandem mass spectrometry: MS/MS fragments the molecular ion and uses fragment masses to confirm identity and detect modifications. A simple identity confirmation by LC-MS does not address post-translational modifications or impurities with the same or very close mass.

22 likes 19mo
MG
m.guerreroTL2 Moderator1 Jan 2025 · edited#16

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

0 likes 19mo
ST
stopper_traceTL22 Jan 2025#17
NH
n.hartmannTL2 Moderator3 Jan 2025#18
methods_margin, post #15: Tandem mass spectrometry: MS/MS fragments the molecular ion and uses fragment masses to confirm identity and detect modifications. A simple identity confirmation by LC-MS does not address post-translational modifications or impurities with the same or very close mass. Go to post

I read post #16 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Resolution: "high resolution" commonly means <5 ppm across the mass range. Unit-resolution instruments achieve ±1 Da at best and cannot distinguish two species differing by less than 1 Da in total mass.

10 likes in reply to #15 19mo
VS
vial_slopeTL3Regular5 Jan 2025#19

Desalting before analysis: some samples need desalting to remove salts that suppress the peptide signal. Report whether desalting was used, because it can affect the apparent ionization efficiency and the reported purity.

0 likes 19mo
MA
m.amankwahTL2 Moderator6 Jan 2025#20
e.steiner, post #10: Mass accuracy is expressed in parts per million. It is the difference between observed and theoretical mass divided by theoretical mass, multiplied by a million. A high-resolution instrument in good calibration achieves low single-digit ppm on a peptide of this size. Go to post

On post #16 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Quantitation by MS: most quantitation is done by LC-UV detection at 214 nm, not by MS, because extinction coefficients are better known. MS can quantify if an internal standard is used but that requires preparation.

2 likes in reply to #10 19mo
MA
m.almeidaTL2 Moderator7 Jan 2025#21

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

0 likes 19mo
AK
a.kowalczykTL2Regular8 Jan 2025#22
m.almeida, post #21: Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

Sample matrix effects: if a sample is dissolved in a complex matrix, other compounds in the matrix can suppress the peptide signal. Clean samples give higher sensitivity than dirty samples.

21 likes in reply to #21 19mo
VB
v.bruunTL2 Moderator9 Jan 2025#23

I read post #21 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers).

9 likes 19mo
KB
k.brandl_deTL311 Jan 2025#24
VK
v.kjaerTL2 Moderator12 Jan 2025#25
p.iyer_pharmd, post #3: I read the opening post twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Electrospray ionisation produces multiply charged ions. For a 4 kDa peptide you expect mostly 2+, 3+, and 4+ charge states. Reading an electrospray spectrum means recognizing the envelope, not looking for one peak. Go to post

Common adducts: sodium adds ≈22, potassium adds ≈38 compared to hydrogen. A [M+Na]+ peak is common and its mass is predictable from the base mass.

29 likes in reply to #3 18mo
DB
d.bramleyTL3Regular13 Jan 2025#26
v.bruun, post #23: I read post #21 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers). Go to post

Charge states observed: for semaglutide (4113.6 Da) the doubly charged ion appears at m/z ≈ 2057, triply charged at ≈ 1371, quadruply at ≈ 1029. Those are the positions to look for; the heights depend on the ionization efficiency.

15 likes in reply to #23 18mo
HJ
h.jansenTL2 Moderator14 Jan 2025#27

What mass accuracy establishes: the measured mass is consistent with a specific composition. What it does not establish: purity, sequence order, stereochemistry, or the absence of an isobaric species. Every one of those requires something else.

5 likes 18mo
G
GEldridgeTL3Regular15 Jan 2025#28

Picking up post #25: that is the part I would want checked first.

Mass accuracy is expressed in parts per million. It is the difference between observed and theoretical mass divided by theoretical mass, multiplied by a million. A high-resolution instrument in good calibration achieves low single-digit ppm on a peptide of this size.

0 likes 18mo
AP
a.pereiraTL2 Moderator16 Jan 2025#29
ai.vukovic, post #12: Charge states observed: for semaglutide (4113.6 Da) the doubly charged ion appears at m/z ≈ 2057, triply charged at ≈ 1371, quadruply at ≈ 1029. Those are the positions to look for; the heights depend on the ionization efficiency. Go to post

Worth separating two things that post #25 runs together.

Electrospray ionisation produces multiply charged ions. For a 4 kDa peptide you expect mostly 2+, 3+, and 4+ charge states. Reading an electrospray spectrum means recognizing the envelope, not looking for one peak.

22 likes in reply to #12 18mo
PE
ppm_errorTL3Analytical chemist17 Jan 2025#30
h.iyer, post #6: Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up. Go to post

Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers).

10 likes in reply to #6 18mo