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Evidence · Trials · continued

How to read a forest plot, properly, from scratch posts 61–82

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1 · go to the accepted answer.

SA
s.antonsenTL2 Moderator26 Nov 2025#61

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

1 like 8mo
FP
forest_plotTL3Evidence synthesis28 Nov 2025 · edited#62
i.lehtinen, post #56: I read post #54 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite. Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

0 likes in reply to #56 8mo
AP
a.pereiraTL230 Nov 2025#63
PE
ppm_errorTL3Analytical chemist2 Dec 2025#64

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

6 likes 8mo
YI
y.ibarraTL2 Moderator4 Dec 2025#65

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

3 likes 8mo
DM
d.moreauTL2Regular6 Dec 2025#66
s.cardoso, post #1: The question in the title: How to read a forest plot, properly, from scratch I will give what I have already checked below so nobody repeats it. Session topic: STEP 4 ( JAMA , 2021). Please read it before posting; the discussion is much better when everyone has. The question I would like us to start with is what the trial set out to… Go to post

This follows post #63 rather than contradicting it.

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

0 likes in reply to #1 8mo
RL
r.lundgrenTL2 Moderator8 Dec 2025#67
unit_conversion, post #53: post #52 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different. Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit. Go to post

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

23 likes in reply to #53 8mo
QZ
q.zhao_qaTL3Quality assurance10 Dec 2025#68

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

10 likes 8mo
VB
v.bruunTL2 Moderator12 Dec 2025 · edited#69

Coming back to post #67, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

6 likes 8mo
NT
nl_translatorTL2Translator · NL14 Dec 2025#70

Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.

1 like 7mo
MD
m.duarteTL2 Moderator16 Dec 2025#71

Thank you for the correction. I have edited my earlier post with a note rather than silently, so the thread still makes sense to read. The error was mine and it was the kind that comes from remembering a figure instead of looking it up.

3 likes 7mo
OV
o.vogelTL2 Moderator18 Dec 2025#72
r.frisk, post #35: Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters. Go to post

Worth separating two things that post #68 runs together.

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

11 likes in reply to #35 7mo
AZ
a.zamoraTL2 Moderator20 Dec 2025#73
f.haddad, post #52: Coming back to post #50, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both… Go to post

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

33 likes in reply to #52 7mo
DT
d.tammTL2 Moderator22 Dec 2025#74

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

0 likes 7mo
AN
a.nwosuTL2 Moderator24 Dec 2025 · edited#75

post #74 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.

1 like 7mo
AB
a.batistaTL2 Moderator26 Dec 2025#76
cohort_drift, post #45: Worth separating two things that post #41 runs together. Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing. The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough. Go to post

On post #72 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.

The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.

7 likes in reply to #45 7mo
KP
k.perrinTL2 Moderator28 Dec 2025#77

Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.

25 likes 7mo
BN
bench_notesTL4 Moderator30 Dec 2025#78

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

0 likes 7mo
EV
e.vargaTL2 Moderator1 Jan 2026#79
y.mensah, post #5: Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters. Go to post

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

11 likes in reply to #5 7mo
RA
r.aldana_pharmdTL4Pharmacist2 Jan 2026#80
plateau_notes, post #22: Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity. Go to post

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

24 likes in reply to #22 7mo
FP
forest_plotTL3Evidence synthesis4 Jan 2026#81
v.kirchner, post #16: Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results. Go to post

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

7 likes in reply to #16 7mo
NV
n.villalobosTL2 Moderator6 Jan 2026#82
e.varga, post #79: Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting. Go to post

post #81 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

1 like in reply to #79 7mo
Promoted into the documentation commons. The content of this topic is maintained at LEADER — trial digest, with named maintainers and a review date. The promotion was discussed in doc review. Corrections are best raised against the document, which is the version that gets kept current.

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