Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.
How to read a forest plot, properly, from scratch posts 61–82
This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1 · go to the accepted answer.
For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.
Collapsed as off-topic by two members at trust level 3 or above
On post #59 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.
Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.
The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.
Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.
This follows post #63 rather than contradicting it.
Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.
Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.
Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.
Coming back to post #67, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.
Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.
Open-label design: unblinded trials admit expectation effects. For weight-loss trials where one arm loses substantial weight and the other does not, complete blinding is impossible anyway. The unblinded nature is a limitation worth noting.
Worth separating two things that post #68 runs together.
Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.
Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.
post #74 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.
Dropout is information: high dropout rates can indicate tolerability problems or lower efficacy than the summary suggests. Where the analysis handled dropouts matters. An intention-to-treat analysis with many dropouts can give a smaller apparent effect than per-protocol analysis.
On post #72 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.
Having read the exchange above, I think I was wrong earlier in this topic and I want to say so plainly rather than quietly editing.
The correction was fair and I had been repeating something I had not checked carefully enough.
Surrogate endpoints: an endpoint that is not the outcome that matters but is measured as a stand-in. HbA1c is a surrogate for long-term glucose control and the short-term complications it prevents. Weight loss is a surrogate for metabolic health and long-term outcomes. Surrogates are useful but not identical to the endpoint that matters.
Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.
Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.
Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.
Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.
post #81 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.
Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.
This topic was referenced in
- [2026 update] How to read a forest plot, properly, from scratchEvidence › Trials · 53 replies
Suggested topics
| Topic | Participants | Replies | Views | Activity |
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Interim analyses and stopping rules
Interim analyses and stopping rules Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did. I have seen SUSTAIN 6 ( N Engl J Med , 2016) cited in support of a claim I do not think…
|
+25 | 29 | 35k | 16d |
|
Interim analyses and stopping rules — does this still hold?
Interim analyses and stopping rules — does this still hold? — that is the question, and I have not found it answered plainly anywhere I have looked. Comparing SCALE ( N Engl J Med , 2015) with SURMOUNT-4 (…
|
+30 | 34 | 29k | 13mo |
|
[2026 update] How to read a forest plot, properly, from scratch
How to read a forest plot, properly, from scratch — that is the question, and I have not found it answered plainly anywhere I have looked. Session topic: SURMOUNT-4 ( JAMA , 2024). Please read it before…
|
+49 | 53 | 643 | 19mo |
|
Reading a trial's population section before its results — does this still hold?
Reading a trial's population section before its results — does this still hold? I have a specific reason for asking rather than idle curiosity, and the context is below. I have seen STEP 1 ( N Engl J Med ,…
|
+140 | 154 | 5.4k | 14mo |
|
Trial registration and comparing the protocol with the paper
Trial registration and comparing the protocol with the paper — setting out what I have, and where I think it stops being reliable. I have seen LEADER ( N Engl J Med , 2016) cited in support of a claim I do…
|
+38 | 44 | 4.8k | 10mo |
Related topics — sharing the tags randomised trial, intention to treat, surrogate endpoints
| Topic | Participants | Replies | Views | Activity |
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Journal club: STEP-HFpEF and symptom endpoints
Journal club: STEP-HFpEF and symptom endpoints — setting out what I have, and where I think it stops being reliable. Comparing SURMOUNT-2 ( Lancet , 2023) with SURMOUNT-1 ( N Engl J Med , 2022) and finding…
|
+18 | 22 | 2.5k | 11mo |
|
Composite endpoints and the component doing the work
Composite endpoints and the component doing the work Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did. I have seen SURPASS-4 ( Lancet , 2021) cited in support of a claim I do…
|
+3 | 7 | 33k | 13h |
|
Second pass at: Historical amylin analogues and what happened to them
Second pass at: Historical amylin analogues and what happened to them — setting out what I have, and where I think it stops being reliable. I have seen FLOW ( N Engl J Med , 2024) cited in support of a claim…
|
+15 | 19 | 22k | 18mo |
|
Journal club: SUSTAIN 6 and its retinopathy signal
On the subject in the title: Journal club: SUSTAIN 6 and its retinopathy signal Working notes rather than a conclusion. I have seen SELECT ( N Engl J Med , 2023) cited in support of a claim I do not think it…
|
+110 | 122 | 46k | 1d |
|
Journal club: STEP 8 and the fairness of the comparator dose
Journal club: STEP 8 and the fairness of the comparator dose — setting out what I have, and where I think it stops being reliable. Comparing SURMOUNT-2 ( Lancet , 2023) with STEP 8 ( JAMA , 2022) and finding…
|
+2 | 6 | 39k | 12mo |