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Research Methods · Statistics

Correlation in a self-tracked dataset: what it can support

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il.dumitruTL2 Moderator19 Aug 2024#1

Correlation in a self-tracked dataset: what it can support — setting out what I have, and where I think it stops being reliable.

I have seen STEP 4 (JAMA, 2021) cited in support of a claim I do not think it supports, twice this month, so I would like to work through what it actually shows.

My reading is that the trial is sound for its own question and is being stretched to answer a different one. I might be wrong about that, which is why this is a topic rather than a correction.

What I would like from this discussion: someone who disagrees with me to say why, with the section of the paper they are relying on.

2 likes 23mo
MY
m.yildizTL2 Moderator19 Aug 2024#2

This follows the opening post rather than contradicting it.

For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use.

0 likes 23mo
LM
lyophil_marginTL3Regular19 Aug 2024#3
il.dumitru, post #1: Correlation in a self-tracked dataset: what it can support — setting out what I have, and where I think it stops being reliable. I have seen STEP 4 ( JAMA , 2021) cited in support of a claim I do not think it supports, twice this month, so I would like to work through what it actually shows. My reading is that the trial is sound for its… Go to post

Relative risk and odds ratios: both compare the rate in one group to the rate in another. Relative risk is easier to understand. Odds ratios are standard in many analyses but can be misinterpreted.

23 likes in reply to #1 23mo
EK
e.kuipersTL2 Moderator19 Aug 2024#4

Number needed to treat: how many people need to be treated to prevent one bad outcome or achieve one good outcome. More intuitive than relative risk reduction.

10 likes 23mo
N
NorringtonTL3Regular20 Aug 2024#5

Coming back to post #3, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if you test many hypotheses, the chance of finding a false positive by random chance increases. That is why pre-specifying the primary hypothesis matters.

3 likes 23mo
GT
g.tammTL2 Moderator20 Aug 2024#6
m.yildiz, post #2: This follows the opening post rather than contradicting it. For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use. Go to post

Confidence intervals: rather than a single point estimate, a range of plausible values. A narrow interval means precise measurement; a wide interval means measurement is imprecise. Wider intervals (more uncertainty) are honest about limitation.

0 likes in reply to #2 23mo
OO
orbitrap_olaTL3Mass spectrometrist20 Aug 2024#7
g.tamm, post #6: Confidence intervals: rather than a single point estimate, a range of plausible values. A narrow interval means precise measurement; a wide interval means measurement is imprecise. Wider intervals (more uncertainty) are honest about limitation. Go to post

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

31 likes in reply to #6 23mo
NK
n.kuuselaTL2 Moderator20 Aug 2024#8

Power and sample size: a study might be too small to detect a real effect (low power). Sample size calculations help determine how many participants are needed to detect an effect of a given magnitude.

15 likes 23mo
M
MSaarinenTL3Regular20 Aug 2024#9

Confounding: a third variable explains an apparent association. In randomised data, randomisation balances confounders. In observational data, confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

6 likes 23mo
BB
b.brandtTL2 Moderator20 Aug 2024#10
m.yildiz, post #2: This follows the opening post rather than contradicting it. For anyone arriving from a search: the marked solution above is the direct answer, and the replies underneath it add the caveats that make it safe to use. Go to post

Effect sizes: the magnitude of a difference, not just whether it is statistically significant. A difference that is significant (p<0.05) might be too small to matter. A large effect might not be significant if sample size is small.

1 like in reply to #2 23mo
BK
b.kowalskiTL2 Moderator20 Aug 2024#11
MSaarinen, post #9: Confounding: a third variable explains an apparent association. In randomised data, randomisation balances confounders. In observational data, confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot. Go to post

This follows post #8 rather than contradicting it.

P-values and significance: p<0.05 means the data would be surprising if the null hypothesis were true, not that the null hypothesis is false. A non-significant p-value does not mean "no effect".

29 likes in reply to #9 23mo
EF
e.ferreiraTL3Regular20 Aug 2024 · edited#12

I read post #10 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Absence of evidence and evidence of absence: if a study is small and finds no effect, that is absence of evidence, not evidence of absence. A larger study might find an effect that a small study missed.

0 likes 23mo
RE
r.erdoganTL2 Moderator20 Aug 2024#13

Power and sample size: a study might be too small to detect a real effect (low power). Sample size calculations help determine how many participants are needed to detect an effect of a given magnitude.

2 likes 23mo
DB
dr_bhattacharyaTL3Physician20 Aug 2024#14

Effect sizes: the magnitude of a difference, not just whether it is statistically significant. A difference that is significant (p<0.05) might be too small to matter. A large effect might not be significant if sample size is small.

9 likes 23mo
IB
i.boatengTL2 Moderator20 Aug 2024#15
b.kowalski, post #11: This follows post #8 rather than contradicting it. P-values and significance: p Go to post

Confidence intervals: rather than a single point estimate, a range of plausible values. A narrow interval means precise measurement; a wide interval means measurement is imprecise. Wider intervals (more uncertainty) are honest about limitation.

0 likes in reply to #11 23mo
SB
sharps_binTL2Regular20 Aug 2024#16

Coming back to post #14, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if you test many hypotheses, the chance of finding a false positive by random chance increases. That is why pre-specifying the primary hypothesis matters.

0 likes 23mo
HF
h.falkTL2 Moderator20 Aug 2024#17

post #16 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

P-values and significance: p<0.05 means the data would be surprising if the null hypothesis were true, not that the null hypothesis is false. A non-significant p-value does not mean "no effect".

5 likes 23mo
TD
titration_diaryTL3Regular20 Aug 2024#18
MSaarinen, post #9: Confounding: a third variable explains an apparent association. In randomised data, randomisation balances confounders. In observational data, confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot. Go to post

Two things before anyone answers the substance.

First, the context in the first post is clear and specific. Second, the question is framed so that an answer can actually address it. Both are the norm here and both matter more than they sound.

14 likes in reply to #9 23mo
JR
j.restrepoTL2 Moderator20 Aug 2024 · edited#19

Absence of evidence and evidence of absence: if a study is small and finds no effect, that is absence of evidence, not evidence of absence. A larger study might find an effect that a small study missed.

0 likes 23mo
CT
cannula_traceTL320 Aug 2024#20
VM
v.malinowskiTL2 Moderator20 Aug 2024 · edited#21
MSaarinen, post #9: Confounding: a third variable explains an apparent association. In randomised data, randomisation balances confounders. In observational data, confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot. Go to post

I read post #19 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Practical note that does not fit anywhere else. Whatever you conclude from this topic, write down what you did and when. The single most useful thing in your own records is not any individual result; it is that they are dated and consecutive.

0 likes in reply to #9 23mo
VS
vial_slopeTL3Regular21 Aug 2024#22
Norrington, post #5: Coming back to post #3, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if you test many hypotheses, the chance of finding a false positive by random chance increases. That is why pre-specifying the primary hypothesis matters. Go to post

This follows post #19 rather than contradicting it.

Number needed to treat: how many people need to be treated to prevent one bad outcome or achieve one good outcome. More intuitive than relative risk reduction.

22 likes in reply to #5 23mo
NH
n.hartmannTL2 Moderator21 Aug 2024#23

Regression to the mean: if you select people with extreme values (very high or very low), their next measurement is often less extreme just by chance. This can look like a treatment effect when it is just statistics.

6 likes 23mo
ST
stopper_traceTL2Member21 Aug 2024#24

Confounding: a third variable explains an apparent association. In randomised data, randomisation balances confounders. In observational data, confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

1 like 23mo
MG
m.guerreroTL2 Moderator21 Aug 2024 · edited#25
MSaarinen, post #9: Confounding: a third variable explains an apparent association. In randomised data, randomisation balances confounders. In observational data, confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot. Go to post

Relative risk and odds ratios: both compare the rate in one group to the rate in another. Relative risk is easier to understand. Odds ratios are standard in many analyses but can be misinterpreted.

31 likes in reply to #9 23mo
N
NHuddlestonTL1Member21 Aug 2024#26

Picking up post #23: that is the part I would want checked first.

Confidence intervals: rather than a single point estimate, a range of plausible values. A narrow interval means precise measurement; a wide interval means measurement is imprecise. Wider intervals (more uncertainty) are honest about limitation.

15 likes 23mo
FY
f.yildizTL2 Moderator21 Aug 2024#27

Absence of evidence and evidence of absence: if a study is small and finds no effect, that is absence of evidence, not evidence of absence. A larger study might find an effect that a small study missed.

3 likes 23mo
W
WendelboeTL2Member21 Aug 2024#28

I disagree with the reply above, and I think the disagreement is substantive rather than terminological.

The distinction being drawn does not survive when you look at the published data for this specific question. I would be glad to be shown wrong on this, because the version I am arguing against is more convenient.

0 likes 23mo
AV
ai.vukovicTL2 Moderator21 Aug 2024#29
j.restrepo, post #19: Absence of evidence and evidence of absence: if a study is small and finds no effect, that is absence of evidence, not evidence of absence. A larger study might find an effect that a small study missed. Go to post

Number needed to treat: how many people need to be treated to prevent one bad outcome or achieve one good outcome. More intuitive than relative risk reduction.

9 likes in reply to #19 23mo
GP
g.pemberton_ukTL3Regional · UK21 Aug 2024#30

P-values and significance: p<0.05 means the data would be surprising if the null hypothesis were true, not that the null hypothesis is false. A non-significant p-value does not mean "no effect".

2 likes 23mo